@alex when you get to this high-school "philosophy" and gotcha-style arguments (instead of steel-manning a worldview you have trouble dealing with), it makes me question your credibility about all other topics/values you want to defend or promote.

Maybe you were only exposed to Protestant "thought" that need to take everything literally and can not deal with ambiguity, but talk with any half-decent priest or rabbi and you'll quickly be disabused of this notion of what religion is about.


The 8-hour workday is too profitable for big business, not because of the amount of work people get done in eight hours (less than three hours of actual work done in 8 hours) but because it makes for such a purchase-happy public. Keeping free time scarce means people pay a lot more for convenience, gratification, and any other relief they can buy. It keeps them watching television, and its commercials. It keeps them unambitious outside of work.

@alex humans are made of water and carbon-based molecules, just like plants. Plants deserve rights.

@boscallian @alex it should be possible, yeah. It seems like they are still very alpha though. I will look into it after they get something on mainnet.

@boscallian @alex honestly, I am concerned with TLAs, but not as much as I am with megacorps controlling/mediating all aspects of our lives. With communick, I'd like to build a template for diverse "local" service providers. With Hub20, the idea would be to a super-small scale of banking/credit cooperatives. Make them small enough, so that no single entity can have so much power over any part of society. Smaller, less global economies can lead to smaller govts.

@boscallian @alex re: "each hub having its own Blockchain". No, no Blockchain is needed for transactions that happen inside the hub, because the assumption is that members of the hub trust each other and (more importantly) trust the hub operator. Transactions between hub members are no different than a transaction in its internal database. It is a very explicit trade-off: docs.hub20.io/topics/architect

@boscallian @alex plans for layer-2? More than that! Hub20 already integrates with Raiden raiden.network

Re: privacy. Raiden is still traceable, but it should be possible to have onion routing for direct which can improve privacy quite a bit.

@boscallian @alex Bear in mind that also already gives some "protection" because one could only trace blockchain transactions down to the hub, to doxx the hub member the operator would have to identify the individual behind the transaction. And if the individual does need to move out funds to some personal account? Tornado Cash.

@boscallian @alex My threat model, so to speak, is that people don't want to "trust everyone", but that they DO trust different set of small closer circles: family, co-workers, members of some affiliate group (their church, their board game group, their rock climbing group, whatever). For each "circle", they can have a different hub instance. How do they fund it? By giving *CASH* to the operator, and the operator giving credit to their account.

@boscallian @alex Whereas with web3 dapps I can create as many separate identities (accounts) as I want and each account can have only the info required to its own end-uses. It's low stakes.

@boscallian @alex the problem is not visa, it is not about financial privacy. If people want to buy something privately they will use Monero or tornado cash.

Problem of centralized services is (a) their "free" services based on harvesting data and selling to the highest bidder and (b) the ad-funded model is a vicious system where eyeballs is all that matters, which leads to the outrage machine, media outlets with no concern with informing, top-down narrative control...

@boscallian @alex yeah, but that assumes that the fediverse only exists to serve this fringe minority. And that people who don't care about anonymity have no benefit in moving away from the mainstream. That is backwards imo. My whole work with communick.com started on the idea that even normies (and business/influencers) can benefit if they leave FB/Twitter/Google. Same with Hub20. I guess (hope?) that the work from Alex on groups and Tribes is also close to that spirit.

@boscallian @alex as for "people signing up for a site that can doxx them": the idea behind Hub20 is precisely to have a hub where the members trust each other. It is a trade-off between some of the benefits from decentralization in exchange of some (a) usability improvements (b) reduced costs and (c) allowing non-technical people to participate in the web3 by trusting some tech-savvy operator.

@boscallian @alex not sure if I follow. I think it is pretty well established that someone using web3 apps (i.e, ethereum) is not doing it due to privacy concerns (it is just too easy to track things on the blockchain). The important benefit from web3 is the permissionless aspect (aka the no-middleman part)

@alex @boscallian Alex, this is why I said we should talk. Check out Hub20, please. Self-hosted, open source and provides all you need to get payment routing and detection done. Right now it has only an HTTP API, but there is nothing stopping it to integrate with a Matrix or an AP server, which would mean payments not only between users, but also between instances.

I think there is a huge overlap between the things you want to do and where Hub20 can go.

@alex @guizzy Loopring exchange.loopring.io works pretty well if you are trying to trade more "traditional" tokens

@alex Funnily enough, I do remember the time when Spaniards (actually anyone from Southern/Mediterranean Europe) were not considered "white". Is there something equivalent to the Overton Window, but applied to Oppression Olympics?

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